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Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:14:00 - [1] It's been a few weeks now since a more unified effort was created by UCAM members and community figures and some numbers are coming in. Not exactly complete picture, but an idea of what's been happening. I don't have everyone elses, so this is just what I'm seeing. They are as honest as I can represent them- I'm afraid I didn't log it in a fashion that I thought would be represented in any way: Number of farmers and or macro users added to the list: 40-50 Amount of ISK stolen from farmers in terms of loot, salvage, invaded missions: 1.3 billion+ Amount of ISK in damages incurred: Can't determine an exact number. It's high for hisec. We've taken some navy issue ships out recently. Those are what, 600-800 mil a piece? Add in the countless numbers of ravens, mackinaws, and popped haulers, and you've got yourself upwards of 6 billion +. Personal gains: Around 600 million. Personal losses: 1 Raven, 1 Abaddon(rigged), 1 uninsured drake (wtfbbq), 1 Megathron, 2 Hawks, various frigates, haulers and shuttles. Number of probes burned off: ~560 fathom, ~60 Ferret, 200 or so Snoop, and countless racials. Number of missions invaded: Didn't count, but it's usually 3 a night or so. Chinese learned: Lot's of swearing. Spanish taught to Chinese isk farmers: Rough translations of what they are saying to me. I'll keep better track of stats and put them up on the forum in like a month or so So that's what we do--- imagine if we had 100 more people.... Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 20:34:00 - [2] /me waits for UCAM guys to update this with their stats. Silent Killa and WCPistolPete kill a lot more farmers than I do... Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:01:00 - [3] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Now we know the reason behind the increases in mission salvage theft whines.... Oh, you bet your ass. We don't steal from legits though. Not unless we're bored. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Shakuul I'm glad you derive pleasure from making it more difficult for people to do their jobs and feed their families. I surely do. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:24:00 - [5] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 20/11/2007 21:19:06 Personally I think you should be investigated by the GMs for harassment as your motives for "griefing" are not for game play reasons and your accusations of "macroing" are not proven, Your making public allegations claiming people are in breech of the EVE EULA and CCPs terms of service with no proof and by repeatedly killing and stealing from players outside of the bounds of reasonable game play as part of your "crusade" is definitely harassment definable as greif play. Investigate away. We're doing nothing against EULA or TOS. As for verifying someone's a macro or farmer, we have our methods. Nothing in a videogame can be proven, but if there's any doubt, we simply move on to another target. There are certain cues that actual players pick up on that farmers do not. If I flip a can and the owner complains, I either leave or simply don't shoot if they take it back. I invite anyone to come fly with me and my group if they think we're being unfair, and petition us if they think we're breaking any of the rules. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Its nothing to do with pvp and as for me being a macro troll well lol, This guy is making unsubstantiated accusations about what basically amounts to cheating. Using macros is a bannable offense and is a serious breech of CCPs terms of service and is purely a matter for CCPs GMs to deal with. This "Macro Intel" are accusing people with no proof and then following them around disrupting their game play by invading their missions or attempting to flag them by flipping cans. That's harassment, not pvp Please join us on an op. "No proof" is a rather uninformed claim. We have lists of people we watch for months before we make any sort of action. Besides-- The only thing it would come close to is hi sec piracy. I invite anyone who would like to come with us to see for themselves or join us ingame in the macrointel channel. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Harassment is a breech of the EULA and TOS, And yes accusing someone of cheating and the following them around causing them problems is harassment. Grief play involves stalking one person repeatedly until they quit the game- While we all wish we were that good at stalking farmers, they just don't quit. The only effective way is to interrupt random groups and surprise them. This amounts to nothing more than hisec piracy, which, as defined by TOS, it totally legal. We have very strict policies about targeting legitimate players and methods of identifying them. Usually, all you have to do is open a chat with someone and ask them. If someone says "no. I'm not a farmer, please don't steal my ****" I'm not going to sit there and tell him he's lying and continue to mess with him. None of the UCAM people are allowed to do that. Again. I'd invite you to come along before throwing out accusations of grief play. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:54:00 - [8] Edited by: Snake Doctor on 20/11/2007 21:55:45 Originally by: Paulo Damarr This "Macro Intel" For reference: We wish the proper form of "Macro Intel" as a corporate entity to be "MacroIntel", "MI", or "Those bastards" (even if Goons have it trademarked) . The public chat channel that preceded the corporation is simply "macrointel" and the group as a whole would be "macrointel guys", "UCAM" or "those bastards". Thank you, Snake Dizzle Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 22:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Icarus Starkiller I vote: Remove NPC war immunity. That'll fix the game in about 1 month. Some of us really like that suggestion, but for the new player experience, it would ruin the game. It opens up some serious holes in the new player experience, as well as actual grief play. Actual grief play is picking on someone. We're not picking on anyone-- Our style of play is to disrupt the flow of isk into the wallets of characters owned by people who share accounts for the purpose of selling isk for real world currency. Please understand that we aren't "MacroGriefers," we're "MacroIntel." We collect intel before we make action and petition suspected farmers. Please tell me what is wrong with this picture: Look Also try to find the article written by Voogru, as we subscribe to many of his philosophies and the tactics he's devised. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 22:24:00 - [10] Edited by: Snake Doctor on 20/11/2007 22:25:41 Originally by: Paulo Damarr ...PR disaster. MacroIntel are conducting exactly such a campaign without any authority to do, They have no proof that someone is in breech of CCPs EULA but they act on these accusations regardless and bully and harass the players that they deem to be "macroers" 1. Not really. It's a game. No one takes it that seriously after a week or so. 2. This point is already moot - I've given you the tools you need to see for yourself. I've invited you 3 or 4, maybe 5 times to come on an op and or sit in the channel. You just keep making the accusation even after I've given you an alternative. This simply says you're not willing to listen to another point of view. I could very well, at this point, make the accusation that you're trolling/trying to start a flame war, but you won't get one out of me. Again, we know how you feel- I invite you or anyone else to see me ingame, join an op, join the macrointel channel, the kill macros mailing list, check out the macrointel killboards, UCAM killboards, watch Silent Killa's videos, or anything else we can offer you to change your mind. This isn't closed source. It's not a secret of any kind. Please remember instead that we're here to demonstrate that the players won't accept non-players farming our game. If they were to all leave tomorrow, I'd simply find something else to do. Edit: Cleaned a quote tag. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 22:36:00 - [11] Originally by: Mazupty Interesting to see Makinaws mentionned. Got me wondering what % of the ice is mined by actual players, because let's face it: it's probably the most drudging carrer of EvE. As a side effect, if (extremely unlikely) you were able to drive away those macro miners, how many alliances would collapse from lack of fuel to maintain their (over) extended sovereignty? Maybe you should be more careful as you are indirectly declaring war on all the mega alliances Actually, I see many, many real players mining Ice. That's the good news. The bad news is that there are alliances that are supported either directly (you know who you are) or indirectly by ice macros and isk farmers. We perfectly understand how this chain works. While we hope to have the luxury of being a non-political entity, we understand the risk involved. We'd love to go out to 0.0 and help kill the farmers, but it's really hard to be effective when every roving gang coming through the system wants to send you 50 jumps in the other direction. Look- If you want to start a war with me because you lost your sov because your fleet of macros can't operate anymore or you can't spend $$ to buy ISK, go right ahead. If I'm your biggest concern once you've lost sov due to an ice shortage, I'm beyond flattered. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 22:39:00 - [12] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Originally by: Devian 666 You have confirmed my theory. You claim that MacroIntel have no authority to attack macroers. Eve is a pvp game and they can attack anyone that they believe, on reasonable grounds, to be a macroer. Myself and many of the pilots I fly with do not operate under such guidelines. We will gun down any pod pilot we see fit to attack. Stick that in your grief play pipe. So a Player is within his rights as a EVE player to conduct acts of harassment in game in an attempt to enforce CCPs EULA? If someone started a Corp "account sharing Intel" and flew around accusing people off sharing accounts with no proof and killed them and followed them around and posting accusations would this be considered acceptable? As long as they didn't use cheats to identify such players, yes. While account sharing isn't the biggest item on the list, lots of farmers are guilty of it as well. You keep mentioning "what's acceptable" and likening it to some moral equivalent in real life, but EVE doesn't work that way. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 23:07:00 - [13] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Originally by: Snake Doctor As long as they didn't use cheats to identify such players, yes. While account sharing isn't the biggest item on the list, lots of farmers are guilty of it as well. You keep mentioning "what's acceptable" and likening it to some moral equivalent in real life, but EVE doesn't work that way. Ok dude its nothing personal I just think your out of order and carrying out a witch hunt and im sure in the witch finder generals time the people strapping old ladys to a burning stake thought themselves justified to. What your doing is vigilantism at best, Dress it all down and its simple you are accusing people of a bannable offense and then acting on those accusations. Its the GM teams role to punish people in breech of the EULA and not yours. Again, this is not some misdirected witch hunt, as you put it. It takes months to make an accusation. You're right. It's the GM's role to punish those in breach of Eula, not us. I don't think GM's do anything in the breech, but I'd love to see them stick a farmer into the breech of a 1400mm. It is vigilantism. It is. You know what? CCP loves vigilantes. It was and is advertised as a career path, and it's not against the rules. Please, if you're unwilling to see things from another point of view, stop dragging down a thread that was supposed to be aimed at the positives. I don't want to repost something that's been locked because it became quickly nonconstructive. Please stay objective instead of wildly throwing out "what is and is not appropriate" according to your personal beliefs or play style. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 23:20:00 - [14] Originally by: Paulo Damarr The issue is not PvP or the reasons for it the issue is about unfounded accusations vigilantism and people carrying out fumbling attempts to enforce the EULA when they have no rights to do so. This is not the issue and never has been. You've no grounds to claim that we make unfounded accusations. I don't recall ever xing you into a gang or including you in a petition. I would make my petitions and notes available, but the former is against TOS and the latter would expose certain tactics that the "bad guys" haven't identified yet. I'm really stuck between a rock and a hard place with this matter- I can't prove to you that we make unfounded claims, but you won't come with us to see for yourself. I don't think you want to believe that there is a months-long process involved in this. Much of my time is spent doing "boring administrative tasks" (as I said in another thread somewhere). These tasks include keeping up on intel and distilling the information I have. It's very time consuming and almost like a second job- but for some reason, I mostly enjoy it. Even if we were to simply start stealing from anyone, any time, that too would be within terms of service. You don't have to throw out your moral compass to play eve, but you should note that the ethical direction on said compass points a different way in New Eden. I'd suggest reading The Science of Good and Evil, (Michael Shermer) and The art of war (Sun Tzu and Machiavelli versions) for further insight. Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 23:32:00 - [15] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Really? I missed the bit where it advertises EVE saying "Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police" That's not in CCP's ad, it's in MacroIntel's. I was referring to the open ended game play eve provides. Also; I know I'm windy, but please read the entire response before posting. (only gold so most people notice this. I don't like breaking up responses with quotes) Quote: Its not my Job and If i started a Corporation and carried out a campaign of in game harassment and posting accusations I would expect to be dealt with myself. If you chose to do that, no one would petition you for it, because it's a valid play style. Please keep posts constructive in one way or another. Originally by: Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest grow
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.20 23:46:00 - [16] Edited by: Snake Doctor on 20/11/2007 23:50:53 Originally by: Paulo Damarr Until you can prove your claims they are unfounded and about evidence and "notes" I could sit and write a bunch of notes about almost anything and tout them as proof so your inability to produce them is no great loss. And finally your corp is only around a month old so how has this been a process of "months" you are claiming billions worth of damage 600 mill profits and you did this while gathering Intel in around 4 weeks in a corp with 7 members? Don't back peddle I accused you of being a "Unoffical EULA police Vigilante" and you said CCP advertised it is a profession. Again, please keep posts constructive-- I no longer feel the need to prove anything to you; I've invited you along on an op and you didn't even respond. You're the one denying any proof being presented by turning a blind eye to it. You can't just say "I wasn't looking! Doesn't count!" MacroIntel is an organized effort that came about as a need to be in line with mechanics of warfare. While the corp has been active about a month and only has 7 members, macrointel (the channel and "support group" if you will) has been around a long time. I've been hunting macros a lot longer than 1 month and there are many, many more than 7 people who help. I'm sure anyone in macrointel at any time would clear that up. While your wording isn't what CCP says exactly, they've always advertised that vigilantism is a valid play style. Originally by:* Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police! Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.21 01:13:00 - [17] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Edited by: VicturusTeSaluto on 21/11/2007 01:06:41 Originally by: Paulo Damarr Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 20/11/2007 21:19:06 Personally I think you should be investigated by the GMs for harassment as your motives for "griefing" are not for game play reasons and your accusations of "macroing" are not proven, Your making public allegations claiming people are in breech of the EVE EULA and CCPs terms of service with no proof and by repeatedly killing and stealing from players outside of the bounds of reasonable game play as part of your "crusade" is definitely harassment definable as greif play. God damn! You are truly as dumb as a brick. Chinese macro'ers are unmistakable. Let's see, they use nonsense names, they are on 23/7, 7 days a week and oh... THEY SPEAK CHINESE! How dumb can one be? Also, how much isk have you brought from the Chinese this week? Hope it is enough to compensate. Vic, while I appreciate your support and understanding, please refrain from attacking Paulo. Even if he may be wrong in his thought process, it's unfair to call him dumb Please be constructive Originally by: Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police! Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.21 01:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Shalia Ripper Hey Snake, looking for recruits? Always- Office at the Wiyrkomi Station in Oichiya. It's a busy place for farmers. Originally by: Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police! Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.21 01:21:00 - [19] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Constructive? I just like 'splosions. That includes macros(must have killed about two dozen chinese raven/drake/scorp in the past 2 weeks), but I am in no way affiliated with macrointel. It's cool man- I just worry that it's a pretty hot topic and is already close-to-locked. Anyway- Explosions are cool, and doubly awesome if it causes an isk farmer an hour of his time! Originally by: Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police! Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.21 01:55:00 - [20] Originally by: VicturusTeSaluto Originally by: Silent Killa I stopped petitioning them, I enjoy their loot far too much /me hides petitioning is a waste of time, ccp wants their business. You know- I often wonder if anyone at CCP reads my threads, but they'd never make an appearance to correct you, because you're wrong. The petition system is there for a reason, and as much as you think it doesn't work, it does. Imagine you work at an internet helpdesk, because that's what they are. An internet help desk that is tasked with reimbursing some clown who just lost 3 million isk in a ship that he'll never fly again after next week anyway. Originally by: Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police! Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.21 06:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Snake Doctor Number of farmers and or macro users added to the list: 40-50 Even though you claim it takes several months identify macro-farmers you still can't post the exact number of macroers added to the list. Why? Originally by: Snake Doctor Amount of ISK stolen from farmers in terms of loot, salvage, invaded missions: 1.3 billion+ Do you trash those assets that you steal from suspected farmers? I'm sorry- I don't make my lists public. Some of the others do, but I do not. Originally by: Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police! Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.21 06:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Snake Doctor Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Snake Doctor Number of farmers and or macro users added to the list: 40-50 Even though you claim it takes several months identify macro-farmers you still can't post the exact number of macroers added to the list. Why? Originally by: Snake Doctor Amount of ISK stolen from farmers in terms of loot, salvage, invaded missions: 1.3 billion+ Do you trash those assets that you steal from suspected farmers? I'm sorry- I don't make my lists public. Some of the others do, but I do not. So you don't give us much insight of whom and why you are saying that some players are macroers/farmers. Got it. And would you mind answering my second question? Sorry- I missed your second question. HAve to get funding somehow--- if the isk isnt being sold or laundered, the assets are still viable game assets. Macro'd ice really isn't, but farmed loot is. The money is staying in the comunity because of a valid mechanic. As for making lists public- There are some names on it ill release, others no. If you ask about a name, I can say yes or no, but I won't publish the list in it's entirety. There is a project moving forward that will aggregate lists and integrate those lists in game. Originally by: Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police! Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.21 06:51:00 - [23] Edited by: Snake Doctor on 21/11/2007 06:51:49 Originally by: Cpt Fina So you trash all loot after you have covered all your expenses for running your business? Not saying that you are breaking any rules (although I donÆt approve of your way of running the organization). IÆm simply trying to recall if you ever complained about iskfarmer-activities having a negative impact on the Eve economy. I too have a long list of confirmed ISK-farmers. All of them are active in your alliance. I won't share the names in the list but I can assure you that they took several months to identyfy and that I, as you do, got very reliable methods to recognize them. Sorry. I was going to reply to this until I got to the end. There are no isk farmers in my alliance. We do not sell ISK for real world currency, nor do we share accounts or condone using macro programs. Thank you and do fly safe. Originally by: Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police! Join Macrointel!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.21 16:07:00 - [24] Originally by: Ash Solar farmings going really well thanks, a few nubs trying to gank and flip me, but no worries, i am working 23/7 and it's barely a dent in the net profits. <3 game time cards, keep buying them plx <3 Good to know Originally by: Paulo Damarr Join the worlds largest single server and fastest growing community of Unofficial and illegitimate EULA police! Join Macrointel!

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